NBC "Meet the Press" - TRANSCRIPT Meet the Press - January 22, 2023
Interview
[BREAK IN TRANSCRIPT]
CHUCK TODD:
And joining me now is Republican Congressman Jim Jordan of Ohio. He chairs the House Judiciary Committee. And in fact, any police reform bill, in many ways, would begin in his committee. Congressman Jordan, welcome back to Meet the Press.
REP. JIM JORDAN:
Good to be with you, Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
Let me start with what we saw. Senator Tim Scott -- let me put up a quote of what he said. He said, "We've been here too many times before. We cannot continue down this path. America cannot stand silent. Let it serve as a call to action for every lawmaker in our nation at every level." What action would you like to see, Congressman?
REP. JIM JORDAN:
Well, I don't know that there's any law that can stop that evil that we saw that is just, I mean, just difficult to watch. What strikes me is just the lack of respect for human life. I don't know that any law, any training, any reform is going to change, you know, that this man was handcuffed, they continued to beat him. I was actually reminded -- it's hard to watch the whole thing -- but as I watched it, I was reminded of when we had a hearing probably two years ago, when George Floyd's brother came and testified in front of the Judiciary Committee. And it was one of those moments where fact and truth and emotion all came together. And he said something at that hearing, it was actually during the questioning portion of the hearing, he said, "Life is precious." And it was one of those moments that grabbed everyone in that hearing, both parties. And the fact that we saw that these individuals, these five individuals, did not have any respect for life. And, again, I don't think these five guys represent the vast, vast majority of law enforcement. But I don't know that there's anything you can do to stop the kind of evil we saw in that video.
CHUCK TODD:
So it sounds like you are not for any new federal regulation?
REP. JIM JORDAN:
Well, there's things we can do. I think there's all kinds of grant dollars that could go out. There's reform that can happen there. We offered amendments to a bill. Tim Scott had legislation -- that wasn't what the Democrats brought forward a few years ago. So I think there's some things we can look at. But it's just a difference in, I think, philosophy. The Democrats always think that it's a new law that's going to fix something that terrible. We kind of think that that's, you know, there's --
CHUCK TODD:
No, I get the ideological --
REP. JIM JORDAN:
-- no new law is going to do that.
CHUCK TODD:
-- I think the Tim Scott bill had a lot of financial incentives.
REP. JIM JORDAN:
Sure did.
CHUCK TODD:
And the George Floyd bill was some mandatories. So let me go through, why not a federal ban on chokeholds? That seems to be -- that's agreed upon, right? You're comfortable with a full federal ban on chokeholds for police officers?
REP. JIM JORDAN:
Well, I'm for the best training possible. But what I'm not for is what we saw there. I don't know that any training, any ban -- there was no chokeholds used there. What they did there was just continue to beat this Mr. Nichols. And so I don't know that that's the answer. But, again, we'll look at what we think makes sense to help this, to make sure they have the proper training. But no amount of training's going to change what we saw in that video.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, I understand, I understand that. But why not set some minimum standards so that officers are held accountable immediately? In this case it was because the chief acted. The chief sort of acted unilaterally here, that we don't always see that kind of leadership. But why not enact a federal standard here? Look, most people don't want to commit murder. But we have a federal standard when it comes to murder.
REP. JIM JORDAN:
If we can incentivize certain things, I still think you want to keep this at the state and local level. This is a law enforcement issue. You start getting the federal government involved in databases and federal licensing things, that gets -- because the federal government screws it up so many times. We've had -- I think one of the items in the Democrat legislation a couple years ago was some kind of federal registry. Well, then you get concerns -- is every complaint going to be there? Are they going to be just adjudicated complaints? How are we going to track this? And I know all kinds of federal databases that get it wrong. We've had members of Congress show up on the no-fly list because they were characterized in the terrorist category. Then you had, I remember, Secretary Mayorkas coming and testifying he couldn't tell us what happened to the illegal migrants who came across who were on the terrorist watch list. So there's all kinds of problems with that.
CHUCK TODD:
But we've had this issue of wandering cops, for instance, where literally you can go across state lines. You've been adjudicated as somebody who shouldn't be a cop in one jurisdiction. And you can get a job somewhere else.
REP. JIM JORDAN:
No, that's a good point because --
CHUCK TODD:
And this is why people want this database.
REP. JIM JORDAN:
Yeah. That's a good point. There should be some way -- I don't know if you need it to be the federal government -- there should be some way if a police officer's moving from Indianapolis to Columbus, there should be some way for them to know if there have been adjudicated complaints against that guy, so you know what you're getting. Because I think there was one of these --
CHUCK TODD:
Right, so don't you have to do this on the federal level?
REP. JIM JORDAN:
I would prefer it much be done, if we can incentivize, I'd much prefer it be done at the state and local level.
CHUCK TODD:
I hear you but I literally did a special about a wandering cop who was adjudicated --
REP. JIM JORDAN:
I saw some of that.
CHUCK TODD:
-- yeah, Delaware versus Maryland. That's across state lines.
REP. JIM JORDAN:
I saw some of that.
CHUCK TODD:
So you see what I mean.
REP. JIM JORDAN:
Yes.
CHUCK TODD:
Once you have across state line issues, it has to be adjudicated at the federal level.
REP. JIM JORDAN:
Well, maybe there's some kind of federal law we can look at that requires that to happen, but it's done at the local level. So if a cop's coming from one jurisdiction to another, they have to let you know what happened in the previous jurisdiction. The other thing that needs to, frankly, happen is we're not getting enough good people applying because of the disparagement on police officers. I talk with police officers all the time. I remember flying through the Chicago airport, the Phoenix airport and talking with officers there. Right now, they don't get enough people applying, taking the test to enter the academy to be an officer because there's been this "defund the police concept" out there. There's been this attack on law enforcement. And you're not getting the best of the best. In fact, they may have 100 openings and get ten people to apply where just ten, 20 years ago, you'd have --
CHUCK TODD:
Aren't you making the case for federal standards then?
REP. JIM JORDAN:
No I'm making, I'm making the case --
CHUCK TODD:
I say this because if you make a case for having, of having strong standards --
REP. JIM JORDAN:
I'm making the case --
CHUCK TODD:
-- that's uniform across the board, it gives people comfort.
REP. JIM JORDAN:
I'm making the case that we shouldn't have this whole attitude about "defund the police" and disparaging police because the vast, vast majority of police officers aren't doing what we saw in that video.
CHUCK TODD:
No, I get you. But I don't think anybody in Washington is seriously advocating defunding the police. I get that there are people arguing that. I think, in here --
REP. JIM JORDAN:
Well, there were --
CHUCK TODD:
I understand that. But in the --
REP. JIM JORDAN:
There were a couple years ago, Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
That's not what the George Floyd bill is that we're talking about.
REP. JIM JORDAN:
A number of my colleagues were, on the other side of the aisle were talking about defunding the police. I got a list of 20 jurisdictions that defunded the police to the tune of over $1 billion total. That's a problem when you're trying to attract the best to protect our communications.
CHUCK TODD:
I understand that. But that's not been the federal debate. That's not been the federal debate.
REP. JIM JORDAN:
It's been a big debate across the country for the last several years.
CHUCK TODD:
But let me ask you this. I know you've got other investigations you want to do. Should this now be at the top of your list? Should police reform be among the top things the Judiciary Committee works on?
REP. JIM JORDAN:
Well, this was certainly, in many ways, abuse of -- I mean, weaponization of government, an abuse of the state and authority against the people that they're actually supposed to serve. But we've got a number of things we're going to look at in the Judiciary Committee and on the Select Committee as well.
CHUCK TODD:
Explain the difference between the Select Committee, which you're chair of that is focused on what you guys are calling the weaponization of the federal government and law enforcement communities, and the Judiciary Committee? You're also chair of that.
REP. JIM JORDAN:
Yeah.
CHUCK TODD:
What's the distinction here? Why are you chair of both?
REP. JIM JORDAN:
Well, that's what the leader wanted. That's what Speaker McCarthy wanted. And the Select Committee has some non-Judiciary Committee members on it, members from the Intelligence Committee, the Energy and Commerce Committee and Homeland Security are a part of that committee. The weaponization is -- we have that because of what we've seen in various agencies over the last couple years. I mean, I'll just take the FBI, for example. The FBI spied on the president's campaign, altered evidence in front of the FISA Court, paid a confidential human source even after they knew that confidential human source had lied to them. The FBI has targeted parents. The FBI has done a number of things. I mean, the FBI raided the home of a former president 91 days before an election, took the phone of a sitting member of Congress, and on and on we can go. And then just last week, we learned that a former FBI agent, special agent in charge of counterintelligence in the New York division was taking money from a Russian. And this wasn't just -- I mean, this was the special agent in charge of counterintelligence in New York, taking money from Oleg Derpiaska -- not just any, not just any Russian, the Russian.
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah, you know who--
REP. JIM JORDAN:
And he was also--
CHUCK TODD:
You know who his American advisor was, Oleg Deripaska? The former campaign manager to Donald Trump's campaign --
REP. JIM JORDAN:
I understand.
CHUCK TODD:
-- Paul Manafort.
REP. JIM JORDAN:
I understand.
CHUCK TODD:
I mean, this so I, you know, does this not also--
REP. JIM JORDAN:
But also Oleg --
CHUCK TODD:
-- raise some troubling signs here?
REP. JIM JORDAN:
It sure does.
CHUCK TODD:
Paul Manafort was the go-between for Oleg Deripaska. He gave him polling information on the campaign.
REP. JIM JORDAN:
He also paid -- Oleg Deripaska also paid Christopher Steele who was the key guy on the whole Steele Dossier that launched the Trump/Russia investigation. Guess who one of the people who was involved in launching that? Mr. McGonigal, the special agent at the FBI. So that's why we're looking at this attack of, this weaponization of government against the --
CHUCK TODD:
So are you going to look at the role Paul Manafort played with Oleg Deripaska then?
REP. JIM JORDAN:
To the extent that may come in. But we're focused on the number of things we've seen here. And I haven't even got to the Department of Homeland Security--
CHUCK TODD:
But let me, I want to--
REP. JIM JORDAN:
-- that tried to set up the misinformation governance board.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, I want to unpack a little bit. You talk about the FBI abusing powers when it comes to parents and school board. School board members were getting death threats. These weren't idle things. These weren't parents just yelling and screaming. These were actual --
REP. JIM JORDAN:
Do you know how many parents --
CHUCK TODD:
-- death threats to elected officials. And the FBI got a tip. Should they not look into a death threat when an elected official gets a death threat?
REP. JIM JORDAN:
School board writes a letter on September 29th, five days later, the Attorney General of the United States issues a memorandum to 101 U.S. attorneys offices around the country saying, "Set up this line that they can report on." Sixteen days later, Chuck, the FBI sends out an email to agents all across the country saying, "Put this designation on parents. Report it on the snitch line that the attorney general set up." So all that happens. Think about it, September 29th, October 4th, October 20th. That all happens in 22 days. When have you ever seen the federal government move that fast?
CHUCK TODD:
Do you know what--
REP. JIM JORDAN:
-- Twenty-five parents, whistleblowers --
CHUCK TODD:
There were actual death threats. Congressman, literally--
REP. JIM JORDAN:
I understand.
CHUCK TODD:
-- this is --
REP. JIM JORDAN:
Chuck, but let me just finish this. Twenty-five parents get reported on that snitch line. They all get investigated. FBI shows up to their door and guess how many have been charged. How many have been charged? Zero.
CHUCK TODD:
Then the FBI did its job.
REP. JIM JORDAN:
Zero.
CHUCK TODD:
Did the FBI not do its job?
REP. JIM JORDAN:
You don't get --
CHUCK TODD:
If they were trumping something up, wouldn't they be arresting someone?
REP. JIM JORDAN:
One of the people charged --
CHUCK TODD:
I mean, you're trying to create a, you're trying to create a controversy --
REP. JIM JORDAN:
No.
CHUCK TODD:
--out of the FBI following up on a tip. I mean, literally --
REP. JIM JORDAN:
One of the, one of the --
CHUCK TODD:
-- here's a mom, this is one Loudoun County, Virginia school board member. "If she doesn't quit or resign before the end of the year, we will kill her. But first, we will kill you." These are among the comments. In Dublin, Ohio, school board member, "You have become our enemies. You will be removed one way or the other." Shouldn't the FBI investigate these then?
REP. JIM JORDAN:
One of the people they went to investigate was a mom. And they said, "Because she's in the group Moms for Liberty and because they have firearms at her house, they go investigate her." You get investigated in America for that, they show up at your house. Now you don't think that has a chilling impact on other parents? So there's a school board meeting tonight. Mr. Jones is thinking about going and talking at the school board meeting and then he says, "You know what, maybe I won't go. Maybe I won't speak out because I know Mrs. Smith had a visit from the FBI last week." The chilling impact on the First Amendment free speech is what we care about. This committee is about protecting the Constitution, in particular, the First Amendment.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, many of the things you want to investigate, when I look at them in isolation, I think they're fair targets. I think they're fair things for you to be questioning. The problem that when you look at it is you want to talk about the weaponization of the Justice Department. You don't want to look at anything that happened during the Trump years. He subpoenaed data on Congressman Adam Schiff and Eric Swalwell. That is known. He secretly obtained reporters' phone records using the Justice Department. He pressured the Justice Department, Donald Trump did, to go easy on Michael Flynn and Roger Stone. The Justice Department was pressured by Mark Meadows who investigated this election fraud. He even tried to change the leadership at the Justice Department. My point is --
REP. JIM JORDAN:
Chuck, we want to protect the First Amendment.
CHUCK TODD:
-- if you are, if you are concerned about the weaponization of the Justice Department in the Biden years, why not investigate the Trump years?
REP. JIM JORDAN:
We're going to look at threats to the First Amendment. We're going to look at this -- what Elon Musk, through the Twitter files, has displayed is unbelievable. The idea that the FBI was paying Twitter $3.4 million to help them suppress information --
CHUCK TODD:
No, that's not how it works.
REP. JIM JORDAN:
-- to keep information from the American --
CHUCK TODD:
They had to reimburse Twitter to comply with subpoenas.
REP. JIM JORDAN:
Ok, do you think it was okay --
CHUCK TODD:
That's a federal law. That's a law Congress passed.
REP. JIM JORDAN:
Do you think it's okay for the FBI to be meeting every week and suppressing information about a conservative --- suppressing the Hunter Biden story, which we know is true? Do you think that's all right? I think most Americans say, "No, that's probably information we --"
CHUCK TODD:
I understand that --
REP. JIM JORDAN:
Here's what I would like --
CHUCK TODD:
-- but that's a private organization that made this decision.
REP. JIM JORDAN:
With pressure from the government. That's the point. I can understand a private organization can do it. I don't think it's right. But there shouldn't be pressure from the government. When is the FBI just going to stay out of the election process? Just let we the people to decide. Let the American people decide. In 2016, they spied on Trump's campaign. 2018, it was the Mueller investigation. 2020, they helped suppress the Hunter Biden story. 2022, they raid the home of a former president 91 days before an election. Maybe just let the --
CHUCK TODD:
Wait a minute.
REP. JIM JORDAN:
-- American people decide.
CHUCK TODD:
You keep talking about --
REP. JIM JORDAN:
Maybe just stay out.
CHUCK TODD:
You keep talking about this raid on Donald Trump. The amount of time -- there was nine months between the initial action that the Archives made for requests of documents before they even turned it over to the Justice Department. The subpoena was issued 60 days before they actually executed the subpoena. And more importantly, the only time the public found out about it is because Donald Trump told the public about it. This was not some sort of -- you paint it as a picture of the FBI did this, this, and this within hours of each other when it was actually a year and a half of Donald Trump not --
REP. JIM JORDAN:
Didn't do the --
CHUCK TODD:
-- complying with any of the requests from National Archives. A year and a half. This is not some sort of proof that somehow that they've weaponized and playing politics over here.
REP. JIM JORDAN:
They raided, they raided Trump's home. They haven't raided Biden's home.
CHUCK TODD:
Because Biden didn't defy a subpoena, Congressman. He defied a subpoena. By the way, he had 60 days to comply --
REP. JIM JORDAN:
They raided Trump.
CHUCK TODD:
-- with the subpoena before they actually executed the search warrant.
REP. JIM JORDAN:
President Trump had documents locked in a room with Secret Service protecting them. President Biden had documents in his garage and in a think tank that was funded by the Chinese. I think there's a difference. President Trump was the only guy who was actually president.
CHUCK TODD:
You talk about that you're worried about the Chinese and Hunter Biden.
REP. JIM JORDAN:
No, I'm just saying, I think there's a difference.
CHUCK TODD:
Are you worried about the Chinese and Donald Trump?
REP. JIM JORDAN:
They took pictures, they took pictures of --
CHUCK TODD:
Are you at all worried about that?
REP. JIM JORDAN:
No.
CHUCK TODD:
There--
REP. JIM JORDAN:
I'm not. But they took pictures of the documents at Trump's house. They took no pictures of documents -- in fact, it's not just me who would like to know what went on here. Senator Warner said it last week. He would like to get a briefing. He wants to see the documents. And guess what?
CHUCK TODD:
There's no doubt. Congressman, the issue --
REP. JIM JORDAN:
The FBI say, "No," but they took pictures --
CHUCK TODD:
But Congressman, the issue is not whether --
REP. JIM JORDAN:
-- of the folders in Trump's home.
CHUCK TODD:
The issue is not whether, what Joe Biden did, is it of concern?
REP. JIM JORDAN:
No, the issue is equal treatment under the law.
CHUCK TODD:
The issue is why is it --
REP. JIM JORDAN:
That's the issue.
CHUCK TODD:
No, the issue --
REP. JIM JORDAN:
Equal treatment under the law.
CHUCK TODD:
You do not seem to ever see the same conspiratorial problems when it's a Republican.
REP. JIM JORDAN:
Those were all investigated for four years and they continue to do it.
CHUCK TODD:
By the way, their Durham Investigation investigated everything you're trying to investigate and came up with nothing. Do you not trust Bill Barr and Mr. Durham?
REP. JIM JORDAN:
The Mueller Investigation that we had two and a half years of this, and they were going to find Russian collusion. And guess what, they can't. Even though Adam Schiff told us, Adam Schiff told us that --
CHUCK TODD:
I understand, but the Durham Investigation did not come up with any--they investigated all these concerns that you had about the FBI, about made-up snitches. All these things. They didn't find anything. Why is it that you want to reinvestigate it?
REP. JIM JORDAN:
They didn't find anything? They found that Kevin Clinesmith altered documents and he pled guilty to it. That's finding something. When you've got someone at the FBI altering documents in front of the FISA Court, that's not finding anything? That's pretty--
CHUCK TODD:
That is all --
REP. JIM JORDAN:
--important, Chuck. And that's what we're look--
CHUCK TODD:
They did not find what you are claiming that is out there.
REP. JIM JORDAN:
Well, they're --
CHUCK TODD:
Why couldn't Durham find it?
REP. JIM JORDAN:
The Durham investigation's not done. The Mueller Investigation is done and what did he conclude? No collusion, no conspiracy, no coordination. And we spent -- we had 19 lawyers, 30 agents, $40 million spent on that and it consumed the country for two and a half years and there was nothing there.
CHUCK TODD:
Let me ask you about subpoena compliance. You didn't comply with the subpoena from Congress. Why should you expect the Biden White House to comply with your subpoena?
REP. JIM JORDAN:
Well, first of all, I never told the January 6th Committee that I wouldn't come testify. What I raised is concerns. They first asked me, I sent them a letter back. I never said no. They never responded to the letter. Next thing I know, they issue me a subpoena. I sent another letter back to them. I never said I wouldn't comply. But I was very reluctant to deal with these guys because we caught them lying umpteen times. Let me just give you one thing they did to me -- they played a video clip when I was doing an interview between Election Day and Inauguration Day, they played a video clip where I said, "January 6th is the ultimate date of significance in the presidential contest," insinuating one thing. What they left off of that clip is what I said, the front end of it. They cut the clip. What I said is, "The late Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg said, 'January 6th is the ultimate date of significance in the presidential contest.'" When you catch a group lying as many times as we did, and we weren't even allowed to be a part of it, so I --
CHUCK TODD:
How about telling us what you talked with Donald Trump with on January 6th?
REP. JIM JORDAN:
I'd be happy to talk to you about the concerns I had.
CHUCK TODD:
No, no, no, but what were your conversations with --
REP. JIM JORDAN:
I don't divulge conversations with my colleagues or with the president of the United States. I mean, I talk with him all the time. I talk to my colleagues all the time. But I don't divulge those conversations.
CHUCK TODD:
Has the current special counsel that is looking into January 6th, have they subpoenaed you for anything?
REP. JIM JORDAN:
No.
CHUCK TODD:
Have they made any contact? If they do, will you comply?
REP. JIM JORDAN:
Of course.
CHUCK TODD:
When should we expect the first hearing?
REP. JIM JORDAN:
Our first hearing of the Judiciary Committee is going to be Tuesday or Wednesday depending on what the minority leader does with -- there's a rule that they have to deal with, when we get their members and all. But we are planning on the first hearing in the full committee being on the border situation.
CHUCK TODD:
Do you support Kevin McCarthy throughout the entire Congress?
REP. JIM JORDAN:
Kevin McCarthy --
REP. JIM JORDAN:
-- has done a great job. And I supported him for speaker. I think he's going to be a great speaker.
CHUCK TODD:
And you will support his speakership all the way through?
REP. JIM JORDAN:
Yeah, of course. I mean, he's the speaker of the House. I think we are going to see our team come together. And Kevin has kept our team together better than any leader we've had.
CHUCK TODD:
Obviously, we had a lot we could have gotten to, we didn't get to. But I hope you will come back.
REP. JIM JORDAN:
I will.
[BREAK IN TRANSCRIPT]
Source